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McFilms
22nd Dec 2007, 04:39 PM
This question deals with lights, but may utilize the same texture parameters as many surface materials.

I need to create an underwater caustics effect, and feel that I should be able to apply a video clip to a spotlight as a projected image, in a way which was similar to how it was done back in the 3D Studio days.

However, I was wondering if this could also be accomplished by making a procedural texture which could then be projected through a spotlight as well, even to the point of doing volumetrics for that light which should enhance the effect. Add to that a fair ammount of floating particulate matter, and the illusion should be fairly realistic. I am using Lightwave 9.3 UB on a iMac G5.

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

JackN
23rd Dec 2007, 12:27 PM
A volumetric spot is the perfect way to go in my opinion.

For my Sub pictures I was more inclined to have the projected image interact with the volumetric fog I was using for particulate matter in the water to get the rays effect, but it would easily extend to the surface of the sub as well, and actually does if you look close enough.

In the Shallows (http://www.foundation3d.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=376&cat=500&ppuser=374)

Perilous (http://www.foundation3d.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=367&cat=500&ppuser=374)

Was using LW 7.5 at first and 8.3 later, so 9.3 should be quite capable of doing it.

Distance falloff for the spot was important to get the right effect, and these were for stills. An animation might be a different ball game.

;)

P.S. An animation or image sequence can be easily used in place of a still image in the image editor for an animation.

McFilms
23rd Dec 2007, 06:48 PM
Very helpful, Jack, thanks so much for taking the time to reply. Now I'm thinking that if I were to replicate the process, clone the light a few times, then keyframe minor rotations to each, that may eliminate the need to find a caustics vid clip.

BTW, awesome renders!!


Mac

JackN
23rd Dec 2007, 10:22 PM
Might work ok... :)

Depends greatly on how much you will see of the caustics on your object(s). Faking the undulations of waves by manipulating the lights might backfire if the viewer sees them rotating on the surface of your objects instead of changing in a seamless way that a clip would do.

I double checked both versions and neither allow for procedurals for projection in a volumetric spot. Maybe 9.3 does...?

You could set up a procedural water sequence in a seperate scene file which is surfaced on a square polygon and render out a sequence to map to the Volumetric Spot... Just a thought...

And thank you for the comments! ;)

Very helpful, Jack, thanks so much for taking the time to reply. Now I'm thinking that if I were to replicate the process, clone the light a few times, then keyframe minor rotations to each, that may eliminate the need to find a caustics vid clip.

BTW, awesome renders!!


Mac

Zippy
23rd Dec 2007, 11:55 PM
What about using seamless image masks. You take your base colors, and apply one alpha map moving one way and another moving say diagonally. I don't know how it'd work but it makes sense in my head. It's similar to how they make water/cloud/fire textures in the Unreal Engine. Instead they use blends and tex panners.

McFilms
24th Dec 2007, 10:28 AM
All of these seem like great ideas. I am now trying a process similar to Zippy's suggestion, using Apple Motion. I'll try a few renders, and if successful I'll upload a vid clip (or several) to my site and post the link here.
The files will be in the DV compressed format, and will be huge. I'm doing 30 second loops, but doubt that most would need clips larger than 10 seconds. Still, other sections of the clip might appeal better than others.

pnevai
24th Dec 2007, 04:36 PM
It is a weakness in LW. Even Bryse yeilds UW caustic renders more easily and with better results. In LW you have to create a projection image, This can take hours to get right, Next you have to juggle that with the volumetric settings, light color, intensity DOF camera perspective then if GFB you wish to animate a whole host of other variables. Perhaps some day like you can now set a procedural to volumetric options you will be able to attach one to the light output, and that will make UW animated caustics in LW practical. Shame.

JackN
24th Dec 2007, 06:24 PM
Well weakness or not, to have volumetric lighting at all is fine in my book... :)

I remember the times when we didn't even have that...

:D

JackN
25th Dec 2007, 06:38 PM
Not a Tutorial as it were but the scene/objects, and images are zipped up in the zip file, and I have attached pertinent screen shots of settings that are set in the scene file.

Three of the attachments are screen shots of the Effects settings. I use a gradient backdrop for starters to set the environment mood of open ocean.

In volumetrics I use non-linear volumetric fog that uses the gradient background colors for that particulate look and distance fade and blending from camera.

In the Image Processing menu, I use Bloom, Light Diffusion, and a Letterbox Tool.

I removed LD and LttrBx for this scene file so you shouldn't get errors if you don't have the plugins.

Bloom could also be omitted or swapped out with something of your choice.

Once again the Bubbles were simply a image mapped card poly set for Lum, Transparency, and Clip.

:)

Enjoy picking it apart and any questions I can answer, throw them here.

;)

P.S. Oh yeah, I edited and saved it out from 7.5 so older version users out here can use it too...

McFilms
26th Dec 2007, 01:27 PM
JackN:
What a cool Christmas gift, for sure. Thanks Jack!!!:cool: (No one can see it, but I'm doing the "Snoopy dance"...)

Thanks so much for taking the time to add this attachment to the topic (I know more newbies like myself will appreciate the learning material)!!!!!:tu:

pnevai:

Hopefully, if folks like ourselves continue to work together on these problems, we'll mutually discover answers we can all share with other newbies like myself. I also have Bryce, and you might have a great solution in using it to animate a caustic pattern that can also be used as a vid clip into Lightwave. Good one! :tu:

zippy:
Thanks again for your thoughts as well on this!:tu:

all:

I've noticed that Lightwave is actually a very complex Swiss Army app. Like the knife counterpart, you still have to figure out how to use it to meet goals. I think half of my problem was the desire to just leap into using the program before finding out how many items my knife had. Thanks to these posts, I'm learning and still being productive on the fly.

I also did some patterning, animated, to try out, but encoding for mp4 is the only way to save "dialup" uploading times. Otherwise the mov file is about 103megs. I could encode to a m2v, if folks have a way to transform it into a still sequence or back into a mov clip. For Mac users, there is a standalone software package from the Final Cut Users L.A. group store called "DVDxDVPro" that is fairly inexpensive: http://www.lafcpug.org/dvd_dvdxdv_pro.html , and the HDV version http://www.dvdxdv.com/HDVxDVsite/lafcpug.htm. Here are some screengrabs of the patterns created:

http://www.macartscreations.com/c1.jpg
This one is made up from cells which grow/shrink/move against each other.

http://www.macartscreations.com/c2.jpg
This one utilizes an image of the "x" shape, then moves/grows/fades each "x" seen. This one looks ok, but is the largest file @ 30 seconds worth of DV video file as a mov file for a total of 103megs.

http://www.macartscreations.com/c3.jpg
This one does the same sort of movement, with rotations added. I also pumped up the Gamma to gather hotter spots of light, which should translate well in volumetrics.

It may take a bit to get the files uploaded to the webserver, but as asoon as I can con my buddy into doing it on his DSL connection:devil:, I'll post links to the clips. :D




Mac

DELTA
26th Dec 2007, 03:24 PM
Thank You!

McFilms
29th Dec 2007, 06:20 PM
Here are the links (right click and select "save as" or "save link as"):

http://www.macartscreations.com/Caustics/u2.mov

http://www.macartscreations.com/Caustics/hori2_30sec.mov

http://www.macartscreations.com/Caustics/hori3_30sec.mov

http://www.macartscreations.com/Caustics/hori4a_30sec.mov

http://www.macartscreations.com/Caustics/hori5_15sec.mov

http://www.macartscreations.com/Caustics/verticle.mov

http://www.macartscreations.com/Caustics/vert2_30sec.mov

http://www.macartscreations.com/Caustics/vert2_30sec.mov

NOTE:

I can only host these files for a limited time. If someone would be so kind, as to download them and add them to the "Resources" for the board, I would be appreciative. As stated before, I am on dialup, and if not for my friend with DSL, they wouldn't be on my site today. Post here if you do this, so no one else will repeat the process. There are about 1.6 gb of video with all combined. The "vert" versions are black & white and the pattern runs vertical.
(the file labeled verticle.mov is a typo in the initial naming of it, and I didn't catch it before uploading, but will still be a valid link)

Let me know if you try these out, and post a pic or video if you do.

COPYRIGHT ISSUES: These should all be considered copyright 2007 by Wm. D. "Mac" McDonald Jr. d.b.a. McFilms (moi), and are free for commercial or non-commercial renders but you may not have permission to sell them as part of any stock video, texture or any other collection.

And now that I made my lawyer happy...

... Enjoy!!!:tu:


Mac

DELTA
29th Dec 2007, 07:19 PM
I am on dialup, and if not for my friend with DSL, they wouldn't be on my site today.

Mac


Dialup??? Ouch

Thank You very much for these.....

When I find out were to put them I will upload them for you... can you e-mail me your official Read me file and I will add them to the files...

McFilms
29th Dec 2007, 08:56 PM
Delta - Thanks millions for the help! Readme file link: http://www.macartscreations.com/Caustics/readme.txt

DELTA
29th Dec 2007, 10:06 PM
Got it :) File size may be an issue.... May need an admin to do it...

A few of the files will not DL from your site??? (last few files..)

McFilms
29th Dec 2007, 10:37 PM
A few of the files will not DL from your site??? (last few files..)

Thanks for the head's up.

I'll have a look, then get with my friend soon as I know.




Mac


P.S.

Sorry 'bout the file sizes folks. I wasn't sure if Lightwave had mp4 or mv2 support yet, and I noticed that many users were still using older Lightwave versions as well. The files are huge, in one instance being about 400 megs or so.

If nothing else, I can try to create 2-5 second versions which should cut down on sizes.

DELTA
30th Dec 2007, 04:25 PM
Thanks for the head's up.

I'll have a look, then get with my friend soon as I know.




Mac


P.S.

Sorry 'bout the file sizes folks. I wasn't sure if Lightwave had mp4 or mv2 support yet, and I noticed that many users were still using older Lightwave versions as well. The files are huge, in one instance being about 400 megs or so.

If nothing else, I can try to create 2-5 second versions which should cut down on sizes.

can you make smaller ones that loop?

McFilms
31st Dec 2007, 06:27 PM
can you make smaller ones that loop?

Yup. Working on it now.:tu:

DELTA
31st Dec 2007, 09:14 PM
Can't wait.... They look nice as reflections on glass too :)

Last 2 files are still showing errors...

McFilms
18th Jan 2008, 06:16 AM
Can't wait.... They look nice as reflections on glass too :)

Last 2 files are still showing errors...




File errors are fixed (I hope). Still doing another gig, but should have the smaller loops ready and uploaded soon.

Cheers!



Mac

David Myers
19th Jan 2008, 02:59 AM
Yes, JakeN, LW9.3 does include a significant upgrade allowing procedurals to be projected through a volumetric spotlight, but only some of the procedurals are enveloped and thus animatible.
Eleven of the thirty-three procedural textures available to a projected volumetric light do have an envelope button. They are:

STClouds, Coriolis, Cyclone, Dented, FBM Noise, Hetero Terrain, Hybrid Multi-fractal, Multi-fractal, Puffy Clouds, Ridged Multi-fractal, and Turbulent Noise.

Unfortunately, the non-enveloped procedurals include some of the most useful such as Crumple, Ripples 1 and 2, Smokey 1-3, Turbulance, and Underwater. Oh well, something more for LW's program developers to do for the future.:) Oh and thanks for the zip file - I'm looking forward to exploring its nooks and crannies:D Much appreciated.
David Myers (aka CthuluSucksVoids)

JackN
20th Jan 2008, 03:51 PM
Yes, JakeN...

Who's that? :p

...LW9.3 does include a significant upgrade allowing procedurals to be projected through a volumetric spotlight, but only some of the procedurals are enveloped and thus animatible.
Eleven of the thirty-three procedural textures available to a projected volumetric light do have an envelope button. They are:

STClouds, Coriolis, Cyclone, Dented, FBM Noise, Hetero Terrain, Hybrid Multi-fractal, Multi-fractal, Puffy Clouds, Ridged Multi-fractal, and Turbulent Noise.

Unfortunately, the non-enveloped procedurals include some of the most useful such as Crumple, Ripples 1 and 2, Smokey 1-3, Turbulance, and Underwater. Oh well, something more for LW's program developers to do for the future.:) Oh and thanks for the zip file - I'm looking forward to exploring its nooks and crannies:D Much appreciated.
David Myers (aka CthuluSucksVoids)

Nice that they are moving in the right direction... :)

No problem, just don't expect a lot, because it really is a simple scene... :)

arake
1st Feb 2008, 06:01 PM
Here's a handy little utility:
http://www.lysator.liu.se/~kand/caustics/

It'll spit out a caustics movie you can put on a spotlight.

There's also the old "use a higher res 200dpi white image and in the image editor, Click the processing tab and add 'Textured Filter'. Now you can use all of LW built in procedurals, including... wait for it... underwater. :) It'll also work with volumetric lighting. Obvioulsy a quickly thrown together image but you get the point. It'll only work with spotlights though.

arake
1st Feb 2008, 06:20 PM
Yes, JakeN, LW9.3 does include a significant upgrade allowing procedurals to be projected through a volumetric spotlight, but only some of the procedurals are enveloped and thus animatible.
Eleven of the thirty-three procedural textures available to a projected volumetric light do have an envelope button. They are:

STClouds, Coriolis, Cyclone, Dented, FBM Noise, Hetero Terrain, Hybrid Multi-fractal, Multi-fractal, Puffy Clouds, Ridged Multi-fractal, and Turbulent Noise.

Unfortunately, the non-enveloped procedurals include some of the most useful such as Crumple, Ripples 1 and 2, Smokey 1-3, Turbulance, and Underwater. Oh well, something more for LW's program developers to do for the future.:) Oh and thanks for the zip file - I'm looking forward to exploring its nooks and crannies:D Much appreciated.
David Myers (aka CthuluSucksVoids)

Hey,
I can't remember exactly when it happened but the ability to put procedurals on a volume light has been around for a while.certaily since before 9.3 I'm sure 8 can do it.That's not the same as a projected cookie or Gobo though. And while underwater and ripples don't have envelopes, they are animated. Just adjust the wave speed. Of course you can't vary the speed over time. :(

JackN
1st Feb 2008, 10:08 PM
Hey,
I can't remember exactly when it happened but the ability to put procedurals on a volume light has been around for a while.certaily since before 9.3 I'm sure 8 can do it.That's not the same as a projected cookie or Gobo though. And while underwater and ripples don't have envelopes, they are animated. Just adjust the wave speed. Of course you can't vary the speed over time. :(

My LW 8.3 won't allow Procedurals, it will allow stills and image sequence though.

arake
2nd Feb 2008, 11:09 AM
My LW 8.3 won't allow Procedurals, it will allow stills and image sequence though.

Just so we're on the same page...
As I understand what was said the abilty to use proceedurals on a volumetric light is available in 9. And it is also on 8.0.1 (I just double checked, in the volumetric options for the light, enable texture, edit texture etc.
Procedurals are not available for the standard spotlight projection image in any version of lightwave, including 9.3.1, except through the method I outlined above. It really should be available as even MAX 2 had this ability. ;)

JackN
2nd Feb 2008, 12:25 PM
Just so we're on the same page...
As I understand what was said the abilty to use proceedurals on a volumetric light is available in 9. And it is also on 8.0.1 (I just double checked, in the volumetric options for the light, enable texture, edit texture etc.
Procedurals are not available for the standard spotlight projection image in any version of lightwave, including 9.3.1, except through the method I outlined above. It really should be available as even MAX 2 had this ability. ;)

Hey! Thanks for pointing that out! ;)

McFilms
6th Feb 2008, 02:15 AM
Here's a handy little utility:
http://www.lysator.liu.se/~kand/caustics/ (http://www.lysator.liu.se/%7Ekand/caustics/)

It'll spit out a caustics movie you can put on a spotlight.

There's also the old "use a higher res 200dpi white image and in the image editor, Click the processing tab and add 'Textured Filter'. Now you can use all of LW built in procedurals, including... wait for it... underwater. :) It'll also work with volumetric lighting. Obvioulsy a quickly thrown together image but you get the point. It'll only work with spotlights though.

Great source! Thanks for that one. :tu:

There's no port of it for Mac OS X yet though:(, but still a great tool. I noticed that it is open source as well, and if I had any clue how to use X11 or any of the XCode tools, I would be happy to help out by porting it for Mac users. Unfortunately for me, coding is as beyond me as it can get...

JackN
1st Jan 2014, 07:59 AM
*bump*

Testing something for email...

Rigel
1st Jan 2014, 10:45 AM
Posting a replay here to help JackN analyze his e-mail settings.

JackN
1st Jan 2014, 05:55 PM
Thanks it worked. :)

Wow this thread was 2007-2008! :p

Rigel
2nd Jan 2014, 10:19 AM
When I saw on the list, looked at the first message and saw the date, I headed straight to the bottom looking for the spammer.

:)

But yes, this is an oldie. But a goodie!

biotech
2nd Jan 2014, 11:14 AM
This is useful to me, I really wanted to do some underwater scenes.

JackN
2nd Jan 2014, 12:13 PM
Heh did I come close to the 1TB button? :p