Transportation - Hull number 401

[George Herron]

Originally Posted by Tony Gardner

I see.

I can also see some of the documentary possibilities the model would make possible, I for one would love to see an animation of the construction process itself watching the ship taking shape at the ship yard.

Exactly so Tony.. There are hundreds of images of the gantries at our disposal at this end and I would love to have the time and resources to put a team on to that as a project in it's own right for exactly that reason.

Labour of love ? lol maybe not.. but somehow I've a feeling that will happen too.

G

[George Herron]

Originally Posted by Tony Gardner

I see.

I can also see some of the documentary possibilities the model would make possible, I for one would love to see an animation of the construction process itself watching the ship taking shape at the ship yard.

Oddly enough Tony, that's exactly the day one concept I started with, and to quote Bill, it just turned bonkers from there as it evolved into to an official project

Now.. where would I find a bunch of insane light wavers to be crazy enough to consider adding "furnishings" to thing when it gets to that stage ?

Oh.. wait.... Hi Guys LOL

[DigitalOrigami]

Originally Posted by George Herron

I'd like you to re-read your comments. Then perhaps read the thread again.

Digi.. Your assuming a voice of authority which I can only read as being some sort of challenging attitude. Fair play to you. However. for the sake of the function of this tread I will make it much easier for you to get a handle on it.

Not sure where you're going with this. Nor am I challenging anything. I'm simply wondering why you chose to do it in lightwave, rather than a program better suited to cad work.

Each of your comments are personal observations based on your own capabilities and experience. as it happens, the team involved in this project involves and includes accredited international experts on the subject matter, naval architects, a shipyard who's endorsement, validation and expertise are beyond question. and finally official bodies who's combined input leaves no doubt that the task is exactly what it needs to be in it execution otherwise it would never have received funding. It is however fair to say that the reason lightwave is the app of choice for this task is directly related to it being my native application and that all reservations regarding it's perceived capability does ultimately rest on my shoulders and on that note I can assure you that all export and verification tests carried out at the outset and subsequently since at regular intervals in the project have negated all perceived expectations such as those you have pointed out.

And that's my answer. Fair enough. You go with what you know. I get that.

Perhaps it would be easier to simply point out that the entire project started with a lightwave modeller stepping up to take on a task that was until that point deemed to be un-doable for a multitude social, historical and technical reasons. The biggest challenge was not the software used. The challenge was getting the data, information and accredited experts on board (scuse the pun)

Technical? in what way?

If you have the expertise in the softs you mentioned and are fully conversant with lightwave, perhaps you could be put to good use at some point.

Thanks for the offer, but my lightwave skills are pretty much non-existant.

[George Herron]

Originally Posted by DigitalOrigami

Technical? in what way?
.

In reply I need to adopt a level of caution re NDA and comments on line. What I can say is that a lot of time has passed and a certain amount of plundering of trophies would be expected in any project when archives have been in the hands of many generations who may or may not have perceived the historical value beyond keepsakes. I am not suggesting that it has happened in this instance. However, In any reconstruction project it's expected to find a few gaps in the data that require extraction from what remains. In this case it's fair to say that a lot of things expected to exist that would have made life simple have not been found as yet. Without them the technical data has been extracted the hard way in many areas from overlapping areas of focused data that kind of creates the impression of completing a puzzle at times in the overall project, which in it's own way kinda highlights the reconstructions benefit in that regard. There is an element of second hand knowledge now that it's past though living generations that the project is beginning to overcome which in itself is dispelling quite a few fanciful myths and theories in the process. By now Digi, I expect you know 401 by name and although I'm not attracting attention to it here for the sake of keeping the topic 3d related away from the keen eyes of theorists. The reality I guess is that for a long time it was a "hot potato" in previous generations involved at source and it's only in recent years that it seems appropriate to correct a lot of misconceptions that took root over the years to set out to do something at long last that is factual and as technically correct as is possible from source at this late stage. I guess also from a technical aspect a lot of people burned the bridges in the past from seeking technical info to support myths and theories to the point of leaving a distaste for opening the archives again. This project on the other hand is in many ways a grass roots historical documentation with no hidden agendas and thankfully has full support and endorsement from the yard who built her.

G

[DigitalOrigami]

Ah, I see. Ok, thanks for the explanation and best of luck with her.

[George Herron]

Heres's another peak into the process.

The method in the madness of spacing the polys at the exact scale and frame spacing in modeller for the entire ship tie's in to allow the blueprints to be projected onto the hull and when vertical wire matches buleprint vertical, visual confirmation that everything tallys up, with so many specific hull details requiring total accuracy on exact placement, the method used is an indisputable confirmation from source reference visible right there on the mesh.

The sigh of relief was immense when the projected shell plating plans exactly matched the hull mesh which was constructed from the line's and framing plans.

The bonus of the plating plans matching perfectly is that they will accommodate a lot of important detail being painted in accurately over the blueprints for bump mapping. The issue of rivets alone makes that a true blessing re poly count.



Wires in light blue, blueprint in grey, where the blue verticals are overwritting the grey verticals of the blueprints, confirmation of the match is confirmed. Considering that the tolerance is down to the thickness of the pen work on the blueprints and that the grid spacing is in 36" & 33" between frames in the image below, The validating experts on the project are a bit ermmm.. "Excited" LOL

[hal]

Nice update. I actually love the blueprints as a texture! obviously they are not staying but still. How many hours are you spending on this?

[BillS]

That is some superb work!

[Starbase1]

Originally Posted by hal

Nice update. I actually love the blueprints as a texture! obviously they are not staying but still. How many hours are you spending on this?

Why not? Its ok to project maps onto realistic landscapes, and if it helps show how accurate the model is...

OK, not for the final renders or beauty shots, but if you are going for extreme accuracy, it;s a great way to prove you achieved it!

Nick

[George Herron]

Originally Posted by hal

Nice update. I actually love the blueprints as a texture! obviously they are not staying but still. How many hours are you spending on this?

Hi, Hal, They will be staying on at least one version of the model The significance of differences in porthole placement between hull 400 and hull 401 have been at the heart of a few conspiracy theories that have been almost impossible to lay to rest without accurate models that can demonstrate fact from fiction.

Hours spent on it ? errmmmm... over the last year on an almost daily basis I've been working on it one way or other, It's probably the only model I've ever encountered where the hours in LW are the uncomplicated bit, Expert's, historians, official sources, all add up to a never ending consultation.

Originally Posted by BillS

That is some superb work!

Cheers Bill. Your one of a small bunch of people I know has the insight and wealth of experience to make that a true compliment. Nothing so far has been particularly challenging from a 3d pov other than knowing how it would have to be approached to accommodate everything that will be expected of it ( no pressure huh ? lol ) When I first stepped up to make this one happen the consensus of opinion was that it would be impossible to validate or gather official documents and refs much less endorsement and official support from source. With all of that in place and an international team of accredited experts looking on, it's actually nice to get back to the 3d build and hear you guys commenting on the model as a straight forward wip in it's own right.

Word is that this is the first time the official blueprints have ever been shown on a validated 3d hull in this way Go figure lol

G

[Phoenix]

Blueprints mapped directly to a model is actually of amazing use. Allows precision placement of detailing.

[George Herron]

Originally Posted by Starbase1

Why not? Its ok to project maps onto realistic landscapes, and if it helps show how accurate the model is...

OK, not for the final renders or beauty shots, but if you are going for extreme accuracy, it;s a great way to prove you achieved it!

Nick

Nick, you hit the nail on the head right there. From the get go, it was one of the things I wanted to be able to establish with the mesh. Deciding from the outset that it had to be easily verifiable for accuracy, even at a purely visual level was easy to say, making it happen and knowing that there would be zero tolerance for errors was a whole different ball of wax in practice. Hence the thread here for the sake of posterity and my tenious grip on my sanity lol. A nice poly flow is one thing but when it's critical to the entire outcome and involves bringing several plans together to get it to that point, the entire thing just looks so underwhelming as a mesh it's a whole different ball game considering the background work involved in getting the form to be exact at a level where it can been seen to be accurate by any lay person at a glance. Somehow it just resolves into "nice mesh" with no hint of the headaches involved in getting it to that stage.

Lol Even with the hours involved chasing refs and detail, I can't help myself from seeing anything more to it than a basic neat and tidy mesh at times. I guess i'm hoping that the superstructure stages will put the uuumph back into it from a modelling enjoyment pov.

[George Herron]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Blueprints mapped directly to a model is actually of amazing use. Allows precision placement of detailing.

yup.. and only takes seconds to say

oO( then days and days of silent modelling interrupted only by bouts of creative swearing)

[BigHache]

An incredibly interesting project. The video is pretty swell too.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by George Herron

yup.. and only takes seconds to say

oO( then days and days of silent modelling interrupted only by bouts of creative swearing)

A wise man once told me "It's smarter to build a model's details off a photo texture than it is to waste hours and days trying to place them from a photo as a reference". That man is a local member of the board and a hollywood artist - nanogator aka Brian =) That man has taught me more about modeling and art than anything else I've ever read, watched or done myself.

[Starbase1]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

A wise man once told me "It's smarter to build a model's details off a photo texture than it is to waste hours and days trying to place them from a photo as a reference". That man is a local member of the board and a hollywood artist - nanogator aka Brian =) That man has taught me more about modeling and art than anything else I've ever read, watched or done myself.

Also widely used for physical models - if I might be permitted an attachment in someone else's thread, a Russian friend is working on a phyical model of Gagarin's Vostok, and sent me this shot of the early stages.

(The final model isn't card, this serves as a framework - Alex makes flying model rockets and card is not much use for that!)

[George Herron]

Originally Posted by BigHache

An incredibly interesting project. The video is pretty swell too.

Good to have you on the thread Hache, The video was made to provide a simple explanation for how the traditional ship builders lines plans relate to the hull in a visaul way that would be easily understood by a layperson. I still get a chuckle when people watch it and go " ahh !!" as the penny drops on how the lines plan translates into a hull

30 seconds of video vs a thousand words lol

Originally Posted by Phoenix

A wise man once told me "It's smarter to build a model's details off a photo texture than it is to waste hours and days trying to place them from a photo as a reference". That man is a local member of the board and a hollywood artist - nanogator aka Brian =) That man has taught me more about modeling and art than anything else I've ever read, watched or done myself.

Nano's work around the forum has always been clear cut proof of his skills, You have a great mentor there Phoenix

Originally Posted by Starbase1

Also widely used for physical models - if I might be permitted an attachment in someone else's thread, a Russian friend is working on a phyical model of Gagarin's Vostok, and sent me this shot of the early stages.

(The final model isn't card, this serves as a framework - Alex makes flying model rockets and card is not much use for that!)

Your very welcome Nick, Your Russian model has an interesting paralle to this 401 in that it's as much an actual reconstruction as a moddelers construction.

There is an insane difference between modelling something from sacavanged refs and working from blueprints. both situations have pros and cons. The headaches of poor refs are off set by a fair amount of flexability to fudge it a bit, where as working from blue prints has the headaches of being tied to researching for accurate representation when something is absent. I guess a 3d reconstruction is in many ways easier from a moddelers pov in that it you make it as is and provided it's accurate and clean it will by default become as exact a model as the refs will accomodate. On the otherhand, the intensive researching and validation process to verify that it is a reconstruction and not just a nice model... Stuff of nightmares lol Good to see yah on the thread, You have my heartfelt sympathies on your quest for authenticateable detail as a kindred spirit on that score It can't be an easy task to be building a rocket that alledegedly didnt exist for many years, you definatly seem to be establising in hard facts that it did

[BigHache]

Necro!

Wasn't this project being done for the anniversary? Would be sweet to see how it came out. Anyone have info?