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Old 20th Apr 2014, 09:23 PM   #31
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Hi lonewriter. - I do visit Trek Core almost daily so of course I'm aware that they're archiving lots of Hi-Def stills of TNG-Remastered but in truth it never even crossed my mind to see if they had captured the relevant graphics.

Just wanted to drop by and show you what I believe will be my final updates for the observation lounge model.
I have been going over the 'finalised' version of the lounge that I showed you a few weeks back to see where I could reduce the polycount; those chairs were certainly tiresome to put it mildly (actually they have been a pain from the moment I modelled them into existence!). Another first for me was the poly reduction tool in LightWave; on paper it sounds like it should have given me exactly what I wanted but in practice I found it a bit hit and miss and just as crude as it was useful (kinda like the Boolean operation!). Anyways I managed to get the final polycount of the model down to less than 15000 with no significant breakdown in the quality of the thing; the full fat one was a little over 50000 (absent the window wall).

With the low poly edition of the lounge completed I then set to locating it into Prologic9's model. This exercise was next to painless requiring very little in the way of adjustment of lounge model itself. Those with a keen eye will note that the floor space has had to be reduced by a small amount to accommodate the radius of Pro9's lounge windows and there was no way the ceiling could have remained at the height the set itself had intended therefore everything above the top of the window line has been squashed which sounds a little disappointing but really doesn't look all that bad in my opinion.

One significant annoyance I'd like to throw out there: You'll note that I have attached a comparison between two renders where we're looking into the lounge at one of the displays from outside. For some reason when the lounge's windows (the transparent polies) are in place the texture map that I had applied to the display no longer locates on the display correctly. However, if I remove the transparent polies and re-render the shot, the map for the display renders correctly. Can somebody indicate why that is? - Cheers!!

You know I had a mad thought yesterday. The windows for Ten Forward are about as big as those for the observation lounge. Now even though I thought the texture maps for Ten Forward turned out pretty good, I find myself liking the idea of modelling that set as well, since the lounge experience was such a hoot!
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Old 21st Apr 2014, 06:04 AM   #32
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Do you have a refraction on the glass?
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Old 21st Apr 2014, 09:13 AM   #33
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Hi Rigel - The refraction index is set to 1.0.
I seem to recall that I did dabble with the index at the beginning of this project but it distorted the look of the interior maps too much so I kept it set to 1.0.
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Old 21st Apr 2014, 02:16 PM   #34
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Okay, so it isn't refraction causing that. In that case, I wouldn't know.
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Old 21st Apr 2014, 02:17 PM   #35
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Another thought, did you do the two renders with different versions of the room mesh? If so, perhaps the textures weren't applied correctly in the one version.
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Old 21st Apr 2014, 05:53 PM   #36
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No the comparison shots were rendered in relatively quick succession using the exact same mesh (low poly version), the exact same camera and light setups and render settings, only one render included glass and the other didn't.

I ran some renders on the high poly mesh today with an eyeball on one of those displays. Unfortunately the same rendering anomaly is present on this model as well; you could actually see that this issue is present on a prior render I posted a couple of weeks back and because there's no exterior surface to the window wall on the high poly mesh you can see part of the of the displays between the windows, all rendered properly! Now either I'm missing something fundamental here or (if I may be so bold!) there's a glitch in the program.
About a million years ago I can recall reading a thread either here or at SFM regarding glow effects that were absolutely definitely applied to a model however the rendered scene was setup as though we were looking at the glowing object through a window which caused the scene to render out with no glow effects applied whatsoever. There were questions, debate and trial runs but I can't for the life of me remember what the outcome was.

I've posted another comparison and some screen dumps of my material/texture settings as well as what the textured view in Modeller is showing me; hopefully you LightWave veterans will see something obvious in which case... Please reveal! I'm gagging to know! - Cheers!
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Old 22nd Apr 2014, 08:08 AM   #37
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As a test, I knocked together a crude example of a starship lounge.

I dropped the object into Layout, made no scene changes other than to move the camera into position and turn off shadows on the light.

As you can see, there is glass in the windows and the image map is sticking to the polygon as desired. I even modelled the screen on an angle like yours.

So, I would suggest start with a fresh scene and don't change anything. Just drop the model in, move the camera into place and render.



P.S. I'm still on version 10.1. It looks like you're in v.11 so it's possible you've hit a glitch. But let's try to rule that out.
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Old 22nd Apr 2014, 10:03 AM   #38
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Thanks for your efforts Rigel! - As you suggested: I created a new scene from scratch (model + 1 area light + camera) keeping it all pretty basic. I hit F9 and guess what? - This anomaly with the graphics returned with this huge grin on it's face!!

I don't know what made me try this but I de-checked the transparency ray trace option and re-rendered the pic. The render turned out good! - Now what the hell is that all about? Another plus that's come out of this is that the sins on my chairs don't look quite so bad.

Now that I think about it, what is the purpose of the transparency ray trace option? - Even though I de-checked the thing you could still see through both my windows and the tint on the glass of my lounge table; if LW bothers to calculate and render this information anyway then what is the purpose of having a transparency ray tracer in the first place, especially one that outputs an image that looks worse?

Rigel, If you still have your example saved, see what happens if you re-render that shot with the transparency ray tracer switched on.
Oh and I'm using LW9.6 - This version caters to far greater talents than my skillset requires so I've not even demoed the later versions although I have to say that real-time renderer in version 11 (and 10?) looks pretty mad!
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Old 22nd Apr 2014, 04:43 PM   #39
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I checked and my test image did have raytrace transparency checked.

Apparently the main reason it exists is so you can see hypervoxels behind a transparent surface. It shouldn't bother the render but, who knows.
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Old 3rd Jun 2014, 03:45 PM   #40
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Default Ten Forward

Hi all! - Pleased to report that for the last six weeks or so I've been able to maintain a hand on this hobby of mine and bring another model to some kind of conclusion. That'll be two this year!

I got on with modelling Ten Forward pretty much straight after calling it a day on the model of the Observation Lounge; once the idea was planted, I just couldn't help myself...

I'll be spending the next few weeks running through the same process of polycount reduction on this model as I did for the Observation Lounge. It currently weighs in at over 166000 polygons thanks to the inclusion of ornaments, table top games, wall texturing, the corridors at the bar's entrances and not forgetting of course the bar stools which were almost as frustrating to model as the chairs for the Observation Lounge (just what the hell is it with me and models of chairs?).

Anyways, thanks for checking in!
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Old 3rd Jun 2014, 04:03 PM   #41
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Looking really good. Nice progress.
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Old 4th Jun 2014, 07:55 AM   #42
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The Ten Forward looks really nice. It almost looks like a real set.
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Old 4th Jun 2014, 08:49 AM   #43
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Verry nice, love it!
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Old 4th Jun 2014, 12:19 PM   #44
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So including prologics Ent D, how many polys does this weigh in now.
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Old 4th Jun 2014, 01:03 PM   #45
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Very nice sir! for the high poly stuff your doing i'd try a limit of 50,000 polys per big room, and if you do an actual officer quaters..maybe 20,000 for some hero sets, and some cheap 1000 poly rooms for the rest (what I have)

Looking bloody excellent sir!
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Old 4th Jun 2014, 04:51 PM   #46
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Thanks for the compliments everyone; I really appreciate that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Marchant View Post
So including prologics Ent D, how many polys does this weigh in now.
Currently the poly count for Pro9's Enterprise model plus the decks I've made, the partitions for each of the rooms (so far) and the Observation Lounge total out to 693300 polys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by valkyrie013 View Post
Very nice sir! for the high poly stuff your doing i'd try a limit of 50,000 polys per big room, and if you do an actual officer quaters..maybe 20,000 for some hero sets, and some cheap 1000 poly rooms for the rest (what I have)

Looking bloody excellent sir!
Thanks Valkyrie! I managed to cut the poly count of the Observation Lounge by more than two thirds so hopefully I'll be able to do the same for Ten Forward.

To be honest, when this project began I was content to use the photographic texture maps for the each of the hero sets; it was only because the Observation Lounge map looked like it was being viewed through a fisheye lens that I braved a model for that location... but that was going to be it!

My plans for the rooms at the rim of both the saucer and the secondary hull are simply to give each one of them a door, a table and a couple of simple chairs as their windows are pretty big. But because the majority of the windows on this model are really narrow I didn't see much point in going to great pains to decorating the rooms behind them as the cost in time would be significant, the benefits reduced and the final poly count would be nothing short of colossal and yet... Ten Forward has arrived and I'm pretty chuffed with how that turned out. I look at the maps I used for the living quarters for Picard and Troi and they look a bit needy for some pep; I think it would be cool to replace those maps with models but If I do that how could I possibly leave out a model of the bridge? - I'm seriously thinking about doing it. I sure it would be fun getting there, but it wouldn't surprise me if it costs us the rest of the year to see it through.

Here's a question: I'm trying my best to be economical with the polygons; obviously I want this to look the best I can but I'm a mindful that this model is only really going to be at its best when it's being animated? - Is there a rule of thumb regarding animations using models this heavy with polys? At what point should I say enough is enough? 1-million polys?? 1.5-million polys??? Maybe I'm picking nits. Computer resources do seem infinitely capable these days.
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Old 5th Jun 2014, 08:44 AM   #47
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One thing you might consider is making Ten Forward a sub-d model. That way, Lightwave can change the polygon count on the fly depending on the distance to the camera. At long ranges it will render at sub level 1, close up it might use sub level 3. Depending on the base polygon count, that could make a difference of half a million polygons right there.

If you have Lightwave v11+, look into using instancing for the chairs. Layout loads 1 chair model but renders it in all of the necessary places.

Alternatively, create a proxy version of Ten Forward, i.e. very simple boxes with textures rendered from the hero model, and use it for the distance shots, swapping in the hero for the close ups.
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Old 5th Jun 2014, 02:53 PM   #48
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Wow, this is incredible all it's missing are the the crew!
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Old 5th Jun 2014, 04:39 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigel View Post
One thing you might consider is making Ten Forward a sub-d model. That way, Lightwave can change the polygon count on the fly depending on the distance to the camera. At long ranges it will render at sub level 1, close up it might use sub level 3. Depending on the base polygon count, that could make a difference of half a million polygons right there.

If you have Lightwave v11+, look into using instancing for the chairs. Layout loads 1 chair model but renders it in all of the necessary places.

Alternatively, create a proxy version of Ten Forward, i.e. very simple boxes with textures rendered from the hero model, and use it for the distance shots, swapping in the hero for the close ups.
Hi Rigel! - The sub-d option sounds amazing but I have absolutely zero experience with how I'd go about applying those methods day to day; this is something I'll have to commit some time to learning some point in the future. I do have a couple of tutorials kicking around the archive somewhere, not to mention Dan Ablan's excellent book.

The instancing approach, again sounds like a useful feature but I'm running LightWave v9.6 (unless somebody more aware than I can enlighten me as to whether or not 9.6 boasts an equivalent function of this feature).

Now the rendering of some of the surfaces to an image to be applied as a texture map: I had actually pondered that one as a possibility and will almost certainly run with it. Keeping it all in perspective, Ten Forward is a relatively small model that will live inside a much larger one. I can't see the quality of the model taking that much of a hit if some of the geometry has been replaced by maps.

I've already broken the model down into separate layers to work on:
The basic room itself currently stands at: 14029 Polygons (which is hardly horrific)
The doors at the entrances/exits: 6610 Polygons
Tables, chairs, bar stools and two display stands (including ornaments) at the entrances: 40045 Polygons
Table top games: 16095 Polygons
Both corridors: 3133 Polygons (I may not even mess with those at all)
The aft wall centrepiece: 26173 Polygons
The aft wall covering: 10901 Polygons
The side wall coverings: 3995 Polygons

Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewriter View Post
Wow, this is incredible all it's missing are the the crew!
Cheers Lonewriter!
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Old 5th Jun 2014, 05:09 PM   #50
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Could do a bit of a hybrid for the regular rooms in making a box, and using textures for all the walls, door etc, but with some super light furnature for some 3d detail, i think thats what MKF does, but he also does his own room textures

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1...38124719337249

Here's some corridors I did (feel free to use them, no credit needed!) so just some simple photoshop walls will do well!
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Old 6th Jun 2014, 07:31 AM   #51
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To answer your one question, instancing is not available to Lightwave prior to version 11.

valkyrie013's suggestion is a good one. Definitely replace the back walls with simple geometry sporting textures rendered off of the hero model.
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Old 4th Jul 2014, 09:45 PM   #52
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I crossed the finish line with my Ten Forward model this week with the low poly edition rescaled to fit behind the relevant windows of the Ent-D's saucer.

The poly reduction side of this chapter was a resounding success... All the poly-heavy elements have been replaced by textures: The corridor walls, the centrepiece on the rear wall, that green concertina effect on the rear wall, the display ornaments at the entrances, the tiled surfaces on the side walls and the control panels on the wait service call devices (or electronic table top games?) were all replaced with textures; that amongst a few other poly-deletions reduced the overall weight of the model to less than a third of what it was.

Insertion in to Prologic9's model: Unfortunately It's pretty obvious that Ten Forward's fit into the Ent-D model didn't work out anywhere near as well as the observation lounge model did; I had to significantly rescale the model's dimensions in the lateral to the point where it's now hard taking the room seriously. To fit the Ent-D model the room had to be made ridiculously wide relative to both it's height and depth; I attempted to soften the blow by adding a couple more tables but there's still a lot of empty space in there and that bar? - you'd need to catch a bus to get from one side to the other!

So. Main Bridge next then! - Should be interesting.

Cheers for dropping in.
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Old 5th Jul 2014, 01:27 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Jota View Post
Insertion in to Prologic9's model: Unfortunately It's pretty obvious that Ten Forward's fit into the Ent-D model didn't work out anywhere near as well as the observation lounge model did; I had to significantly rescale the model's dimensions in the lateral to the point where it's now hard taking the room seriously. To fit the Ent-D model the room had to be made ridiculously wide relative to both it's height and depth; I attempted to soften the blow by adding a couple more tables but there's still a lot of empty space in there and that bar? - you'd need to catch a bus to get from one side to the other!
That's a common issue through all series. I was faced with the same problem when I made the promenade interiors for my DS9 model.
I like the resized version although it looks a bit sqashed. Makes more sense to me as there are more than thousand people on the ship.
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Old 5th Jul 2014, 03:14 PM   #54
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FANTASTIC work, im really loving this and working on something that hasn't really been made is such good format before, keep up the good work....Great work I mean!
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Old 5th Jul 2014, 04:09 PM   #55
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Glad your still on it and some great updates. Bet the poly count with the Ent D will be massive.
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Old 28th Oct 2014, 01:53 AM   #56
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Default Main Bridge

And here it is!!!
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Old 29th Oct 2014, 08:07 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Jota View Post
And here it is!!!
Wow, that's ummm really ummm nice.
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Old 29th Oct 2014, 06:39 PM   #58
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Default Main Bridge

Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewriter View Post
Wow, that's ummm really ummm nice.
That was created in '96 (maybe even 1995) by an 18 year old me on an Atari ST running Hyperpaint 2! I only had 320x240 pixels and 16 colours (including the black and the white) to play with. - Ah, simpler times!

So, it's that time again. After three months of effort I have completed what is almost certainly my best model to date, not to mention the fulfilment of a creative desire that's been locked up inside me for around 14 years.

Significant hurdles on this one consisted of:

References of the overall shape of the bridge set: I had been working off the smallest of small JPEGs of scans that were made of what appears to be the actual set plans but I suspect that they were actually for the set created for the Star Trek Exhibition (I've stood on that one! ). Nonetheless, despite their small dimensions, these set plans were absolutely essential in that they provided me with guidance for the set's footprint and more importantly that elaborate ceiling.

Those chairs! - Yep, still no better at modelling those, indeed I killed an entire day on Riker's and Troi's chairs and wrapped all that up by scrapping them both... My eyes were bleeding by that point!

The wooden horse shoe. Those nodes are tricky aren't they? - I tried and I tried to get the wood grain to behave. My main problem was that the grain direction goes vertically across the console when I needed it to go horizontally across it; now it would seem obvious to use the node editor to adjust the angle of direction by 90°, yes? - Well I tried that over and over and over again... Changing the density of the grain was relatively straightforward however the appropriate density of grain in the vertical direction made the tactical console appear as though someone had scribbled all over it with a marker pen! - Not good.

Despite all that, I was really happy with the final result and I've received a ton of positives from all I know who have seen it. If you check out the display graphics that I attached to this thread you'll appreciate just how seriously obsessive on the detail I was prepared to go. Every single button was given some consideration with respect to it's shape, it's colour and what number/initials should be printed on them... Every single one!

Now I'll be looking at reducing the polys as before, prepping it for insertion into the Pro9's model.
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Old 29th Oct 2014, 06:51 PM   #59
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Nice work on the graphics!
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Old 30th Oct 2014, 10:30 AM   #60
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Very very beautiful object. I like it very much.
Have we any chance to get the item from you?
I'm waiting for more images.
many greetings
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