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Old 10th Jan 2008, 10:20 AM   #1
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Default texture challenge 'no-third-party' rule...

As we move more into a multi-application cg workflow, this 'no plugins' rule seems a bit outdated. Something from the days that you could actually 'cheat' by using a plugin.

Nowadays, though, I think the playing field is pretty level in native tools versus 3rd party tools. And hey, if all the zbrush entries or modo entries or G2 or Fprime or Renderman Artist Tools entries look good, it's nothing that couldn't be accomplished out of the box in LW or Maya or XSI or Blender nowadays.

In short, is there any reason we're sticking with this? It isn't representative of a workplace pipeline, so I fail to see the relevance or even usefulness of such a rule. If anything, I think its counterproductive and unnecessarily restricting.

And hey, if it's not up for discussion, that's fine. Not my ball, not my rules. Just thought I'd put it out there.
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Old 10th Jan 2008, 01:17 PM   #2
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If 3rd party is allowed, then it needs to be free 3rd party and from a fixed list.
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Old 10th Jan 2008, 02:43 PM   #3
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uh, why?

Michelangelo could create art with a rock and some soot. And some people with the most expensive paint and canvas in the world couldn't create more than...a mess.

It's not the tools mate, its what you do with them. And LW with paid 3rd party almost equals the functionality of maya. shouldn't maya be disallowed then? Or maybe just maya unlimited? It's not always an exactly level playing field software-wise, and even if it seemingly is software-wise, it isn't creatively. that's up to the person.

Also, at the same time, nowadays most 3rd party tools just expedite what can be brute forced or faked anyway.

I just don't see the value.

Also, as I've said before, IMHO competitions should only foster skills that would be useful in the workplace. And limiting what you use to get the job done is exactly the opposite of that.
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Old 10th Jan 2008, 03:01 PM   #4
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If it's not the tools, then why use 3rd party apps at all?
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Old 10th Jan 2008, 03:17 PM   #5
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because you use what you have at your disposal to create art. I'm not saying that they should be required. only allowed.

we could also sit on our mouse hand for an hour then use it to create art, and you'd accomplish the same thing, but slower and less conveniently. why don't we make that a rule?

currently, the competition is not practice for a real-life scenario, any more than guitar hero is preparation for a live performance. you need those strings in the pros, because that's what the pros use.
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Old 10th Jan 2008, 03:19 PM   #6
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oh, and by that logic, why use 3d at all? let's rule out 3d apps altogether then. my point with it not being the tools is that the intent of that rule is not being fulfilled. the rule is trying to level the playing field for everyone, but this isn't possible and the software field is level enough without this additional restriction.
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Old 10th Jan 2008, 03:34 PM   #7
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Okay guys, this is becoming a spitting match and I won't allow that here.

You each have an opinion, respect one another's opinions and let it go at that.

Then, respect the decisions of BillS pertaining to the rules he chooses to use.
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Old 10th Jan 2008, 03:42 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Rigel View Post
Okay guys, this is becoming a spitting match and I won't allow that here.

You each have an opinion, respect one another's opinions and let it go at that.

Then, respect the decisions of BillS pertaining to the rules he chooses to use.
Agreed.
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Old 10th Jan 2008, 03:53 PM   #9
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Fair enough. Not intending to be a spitting match, so to speak.
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Old 10th Jan 2008, 04:29 PM   #10
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Well..... I think this is the most spirited discussion that I've seen in here. The plugin rule is/was basically from the original contest. So it just carried over. Most of the reason that I left it in was just to keep the field as level as I could. I'm just not familiar enough with all the packages to say what is in and what isn't, what is allowed and what isn't. And about the time that you start a list of approved stuff... it will just be a never ending list as more and more people find new "stuff" that should be on it. I wasn't about to take the rules and turn them into a book and start screening images and such.

This challenge has always been more to get people involved and try their hand at texturing simple things. Its all based on the honor system anyway since I've never felt the need to question anyone on how they achieved their textures. The only baseline that I have at my disposal is "base install" per package. If I start really trying to limit people or totally open it up then I have to start allowing people to use pelt mapping software since not all packages have that etc. See this isn't really a prep for pro's. I just want to get people thinking about texturing in a very nonthreatening atmosphere. Someplace where the complete noob can take part and not worry about getting railed that its junk.

The restrictions are only on the rendering package though. Lets face it. I have a nice 8 megapixel DSLR. I can go and take whatever texture shots I feel I need. I can load them and manipulate them in CS3 using all the tools available to me there. I have Fprime and a fast machine with loads of ram. I can load the object into UVLayout and set up perfect uv's for it, test it all in seconds thanks to the immediate results in fprime. When I'm happy then hit F9 so that all I'm taking the render hit on is the final output Adjust the AA settings or rad etc.

To me that already puts me ahead in the game. I have limited time to play with so I can bring a lot of time saving tools to bear so that I don't waste any of my time. It also puts me ahead from the start against someone that doesn't have all this at their disposal.

lack of coffee.. I'm starting to ramble. Sorry.

Anyway I'm not limiting any external helper apps like PS, cameras etc. Just the packages. We need to remember that this is about texturing the object not setting up the perfect scene. Just (in this case) a barrel on a blank background.

So for now, I want to leave it as a base app install until I see how it unfolds.

Now I'm off to get a coffee
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Old 10th Jan 2008, 06:29 PM   #11
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So, is it alright to use FPrime while setting the scene up, just not use it for the final render?
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Old 11th Jan 2008, 06:58 PM   #12
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Yep its ok to use it to set up but I ask that the final render comes from LW.
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Old 11th Jan 2008, 09:25 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillS View Post
The only baseline that I have at my disposal is "base install" per package. If I start really trying to limit people or totally open it up then I have to start allowing people to use pelt mapping software since not all packages have that etc. See this isn't really a prep for pro's. I just want to get people thinking about texturing in a very nonthreatening atmosphere. Someplace where the complete noob can take part and not worry about getting railed that its junk.

<->
To me that already puts me ahead in the game. I have limited time to play with so I can bring a lot of time saving tools to bear so that I don't waste any of my time. It also puts me ahead from the start against someone that doesn't have all this at their disposal.

lack of coffee.. I'm starting to ramble. Sorry.

Anyway I'm not limiting any external helper apps like PS, cameras etc. Just the packages. We need to remember that this is about texturing the object not setting up the perfect scene. Just (in this case) a barrel on a blank background.

So for now, I want to leave it as a base app install until I see how it unfolds.

Now I'm off to get a coffee


Thanks for clearing that up Can we now clear up the confusion this clear up has just added?


No third party apps but helper apps are allowed?
Photoshop? Very clearly a third party app. it's allowed ?
Stand alone pelt tool? not allowed? why not if it's a package in its own right?

If we are now Multi app friendly, is it a ONE APP only comp? or can we use various pipelines between them? or does that make them thirdparty to each other?


example.. Can I use VUE to enter the comp? and if not why not? and If I can use vue then I can use xstream, since is is complete in its own right, but is it a helper app, a third party app or is it a stand alone application? It's all three !

I'm in 100% agreement with Jezza's views. I feel the whole thing is getting lost in pointless out dated rules that don't, won't and can't apply in a multi app forum.
The cg sphere site proved that the only thing that will work is to base the rules atound the visible results rather than the process. Even baisc rules like " Can't move it, can't add polys to it" are utterly pointless, If this object was opened in vue, It would automaticlly be moved and the ploys be decimated for efficency
Unless we are all useing the same package, there is no way to justify banning one tool and allowing another. Exporting UVs for painting in photoshop has lead to half the LW community think that this is the only way rather then uving nativly inside LW... But since LW is perfectly capable of internal UVing, then Photoshop is technically a thrid party process..?? Banned? One mans helper app is anothers Third party.

The only rules that will work easily are.

"Take Object" and BRING IT BACK PAINTED UP with your apps of choice and rendered at x size in x format by x date.
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Old 11th Jan 2008, 09:51 PM   #14
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Sounds simple to me... The picture you turn in must be rendered with the 1 3D application of your choice. You Must use out of the box plugins with no tuchups from any other application. You may use 3rd party plugins like FPrime to setup your scene and set it up only... Am I correct?
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Old 11th Jan 2008, 10:14 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DELTA View Post
Sounds simple to me... The picture you turn in must be rendered with the 1 3D application of your choice. You Must use out of the box plugins with no tuchups from any other application. You may use 3rd party plugins like FPrime to setup your scene and set it up only... Am I correct?
A strictly internal process on a single AS SHIPPED app
Now that would be interesting but No touch ups from any other app = no photoshop.which is likely to turn a lot of people off.
then theres still added headaches, which shippment? some came with texture content,some didint.

As usual, it all desends into a pile of poo about rules instead of enjoying the task.

Face it Bill . You can't please everyone and rules breed new rules to explain the old ones till theres nothing but rules.

Whats wrong with, a nice simple "take the object and GO DO." ?



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Old 12th Jan 2008, 06:04 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by jorjo View Post
Thanks for clearing that up Can we now clear up the confusion this clear up has just added?


No third party apps but helper apps are allowed?
Photoshop? Very clearly a third party app. it's allowed ?
Stand alone pelt tool? not allowed? why not if it's a package in its own right?

If we are now Multi app friendly, is it a ONE APP only comp? or can we use various pipelines between them? or does that make them thirdparty to each other?


example.. Can I use VUE to enter the comp? and if not why not? and If I can use vue then I can use xstream, since is is complete in its own right, but is it a helper app, a third party app or is it a stand alone application? It's all three !

I'm in 100% agreement with Jezza's views. I feel the whole thing is getting lost in pointless out dated rules that don't, won't and can't apply in a multi app forum.
The cg sphere site proved that the only thing that will work is to base the rules atound the visible results rather than the process. Even baisc rules like " Can't move it, can't add polys to it" are utterly pointless, If this object was opened in vue, It would automaticlly be moved and the ploys be decimated for efficency
Unless we are all useing the same package, there is no way to justify banning one tool and allowing another. Exporting UVs for painting in photoshop has lead to half the LW community think that this is the only way rather then uving nativly inside LW... But since LW is perfectly capable of internal UVing, then Photoshop is technically a thrid party process..?? Banned? One mans helper app is anothers Third party.

The only rules that will work easily are.

"Take Object" and BRING IT BACK PAINTED UP with your apps of choice and rendered at x size in x format by x date.
For someone that is calling for it to be cleared up.... you have a special way of grabbing a bucket of dirt and throwing it in the puddle. Lets re-read this bit of what I posted.
Quote:
Anyway I'm not limiting any external helper apps like PS, cameras etc. Just the packages. We need to remember that this is about texturing the object not setting up the perfect scene. Just (in this case) a barrel on a blank background.

So for now, I want to leave it as a base app install until I see how it unfolds.
If you want to submit a render from Vue. Be my guest. Love to see it entered. Can you use the xstream plugin for LW to put it in a nice environment. Well that depends on if when you click on the setup icon for lw, it installs xstream. If it doesn't then you can't use it. Do the render in vue or in LW.

On the moving and adding like polys, like your vue example again, YOU didn't add them. If your chosen package triples all .objs. Then there is nothing you can do about it. If you then take that object and start adding a spigot and some rope handles. That would be a no no.

Again.. I'm not limiting the tools you use to get it done. If you load it into modo and UV it. Then take it to bodypaint to make the maps. Great. As long as you load it into your chosen package and render it as a png, 800x600 using only the renderer and tools that are installed with your package. Then send it to me without editing it.
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Old 12th Jan 2008, 06:07 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DELTA View Post
Sounds simple to me... The picture you turn in must be rendered with the 1 3D application of your choice. You Must use out of the box plugins with no tuchups from any other application. You may use 3rd party plugins like FPrime to setup your scene and set it up only... Am I correct?
Thats pretty much it, yep.
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Old 12th Jan 2008, 08:11 AM   #18
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*sigh* There go the image maps

Well, good then...it'll teach me to work outside my comfort zone, which is always good.
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Old 12th Jan 2008, 09:47 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillS View Post
For someone that is calling for it to be cleared up.... you have a special way of grabbing a bucket of dirt and throwing it in the puddle. Lets re-read this bit of what I posted.

If you want to submit a render from Vue. Be my guest. Love to see it entered. Can you use the xstream plugin for LW to put it in a nice environment. Well that depends on if when you click on the setup icon for lw, it installs xstream. If it doesn't then you can't use it. Do the render in vue or in LW
Ok, Now I think I understand,
It's ok to map it and export the results from Vue then load it up and render it in LW

But it's not ok do exactly the same thing and render it in LW using the Xstream Hub


.<->
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillS View Post

Again.. I'm not limiting the tools you use to get it done. If you load it into modo and UV it. Then take it to bodypaint to make the maps. Great. As long as you load it into your chosen package and render it as a png, 800x600 using only the renderer and tools that are installed with your package. Then send it to me without editing it.
Clear as Mud...
It's ok to map and render in Vue, it's ok to map in vue and render in LW, but its not ok to map in vue and render in LW with both apps open at the same time


but I have an idea. , How about just texturing the thing and rendering it and when someone win's let them explain their tools and process

The whole thing about 3party advantage sounds totally daft when this is open to a Multi app field. As Jezza point's out right back at the beginning, the plugs balance the field

Surely it should be about what the artist can do with the mesh using his wepons of choice.... And Not to put to fine a point on this Eth, But How can you exclude Plugins anyways? As an example, We are all equipped with the tools to make lscripts and plugins from inside LW, Guys like Jezza who make them are able to use what they make from an out of the box install. Wheres that stop? What is a plugin? a thirdparty instruction set? but then Presets are plugins too, we swap them.. share thema nd create them....
OK by now your convinced that I'm trying to be awkward here.
I'm Not. the reality is that there is No way to make the challange clean, fair and level through rules.
The idea of a plugin ban was originaly aimed at keeping people form Buying an advantage over the std package. when it was all LW.

Now you have Blender V's LW, Maya, Max etc. added to the mix with massive differences in cost already.

Then theres that one final detail that can make a mockery out of all the rules anyways.
ie image projection and UV baking. Some one could use every expensive fancy plugin on the planet and break every rule, but so long as they then project or bake that Image to the object as a surface, they are clean an clear.

Yeah I know,, you think I'm being negitive about it all... Well your wrong, I actually think its all making a steaming great pile of pooh out of a very simple issue .

The rules. As I would make them are thus

1/ Download object
2/ Texture object without changing it's physical shape
3/ Post results by X date In X format and at X size
4/ State tools used

I think anything more than that is un-justified, un workable and unfair.

Unless you gotz photorealisticbarrelz.p stashed in your HDs Whats to be affraid of?
I DON'T CARE if someone wants to spend 25000 on a plugin to make their's pretty.
It's still only a barrel.
As I see it, the only way that anyone can CHEAT is to photograph a barrel and map it on, and since thats a perfectly legitimate texturing technique already, then why do wee need extra rules at all?

Can we not just cut all the crap and use what we got and judge the damn thing on How the renders look when we are done?

Seriously, I don't get it. !
Does it look like a barrel?, YUP.. well done.... What could ever be called cheating in that anyways?
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Old 12th Jan 2008, 10:58 AM   #20
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I'm not going to quote all that again.

OK.. Lets put it this way then.
This is Round one in a new multi app forums. Am I against changing and/or modifying the rules? Not in the slightest. Ask anyone here. I'm all for input. What I am against though is getting into a spitting match with someone that in reality couldn't give a rats ass about MY contest.

Case and point. On LWG when I asked what people thought about changing the format for the TC you posted 9 books on why it should never change, nobody wants it, you can't do it, give us what we want! You even offered to take over it if I was to pressed for time.

You were quite vocal and quite adamant about it. You in part convinced me to leave it as it was. Now let me check something..

April TC... nope no JJ
May? nope
June surely...nope.
July? nope no entry there from JJ either
August? no JJ
September? no again
Last month... October... hmm no again.

See. Your big on getting things change or not to change but your really lacking in the taking part end of things. So who am I going to spend more time listening to. Someone that types for the sake of seeing his own words on the screen or someone like fishman, eomer, JackN, Evan, TWG, MooseDog and the many others that actually TAKE PART?

So. at the end of the day your writing books and blabbering about a "term" more than anything. Since in basic terms that all the rules ARE. Download it, don't modify it, Texture it and render it in your chosen app. All I'm asking is that you use the native renderer in that chosen app. Thats it. No maxwell, vray etc. If you have darktree and want to use it to spit out the maps and apply them in LW then no problem. If you use the simbiont plugin to do it.. don't. Use Genetica or PS to make maps. No problem. Bodypaint, again no problem. Just RENDER it in your chosen app.

Or if I wanted to I could just drop into parent mode

because I said so.

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Old 12th Jan 2008, 01:32 PM   #21
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Quote:
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...... All I'm asking is that you don't use the native renderer in that chosen app. ....
Is this a typo Bill, I assume that you mean you want us to use the native renderer in our chosen app?

I am all for keeping the rules as they were. No, non-standard plugins, for textures, or rendering.
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Old 12th Jan 2008, 01:35 PM   #22
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puts on his innocent face.

ummm....... What typo?
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Old 12th Jan 2008, 02:43 PM   #23
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Ah Jeeze...

Just make something and enter it or don't...

If you don't like the rules move on...

If nobody likes em, the damn contest will die on the vine... so enough whining.

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Old 12th Jan 2008, 02:46 PM   #24
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Jack to the rescue!
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Old 12th Jan 2008, 09:30 PM   #25
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Ah Jeeze...

Just make something and enter it or don't...

If you don't like the rules move on...

If nobody likes em, the damn contest will die on the vine... so enough whining.

Tats what I was trying tee tell him J,, But he got all menstral abuot it

@ Eth, Just soz you know. I'd a workload from hell for over a year, Yeh sure I coullda shoulda woulda supported the texture comp, but when I did I invariably missed the deadlines from being distracted by realworld responsibilities. Putting a list up of months that I wasn't entered proves your point well, Bravo...... It would be such a shame to tarnish such a flourish with a reminder that I uploaded the helmet after the comp as evidence of still being around and interested dispite a heavy workload.

No matter. . Apparently I have no interest and took time to discuss thie becasue I have no interest

What is it with this place and the bizzare rules fettish anyways?


As Jack has just said. and As I said earlier.
Lets just texture the damn thing and judge the pictures

Let people use anything they like since its Multi app anyways.
And as for me being an advocate of kepping thigs as they where, I hate to argue the point but I really havent moved on that. I'd just as soon have it as it was, as LW only on a LW only forum, but thats dead and gone. reality os that we are now dealing with a Multi app environment where those rules won't work anymore.
So... Multi app forum, multi app process.

I like the PARENT thing best it works.

I'll do that parent thing right back at yah I'll just texture the object and be done with it. If you choose to get all teenage and complain about how, feel free
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Old 13th Jan 2008, 08:25 AM   #26
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*JackN shoots the dead horse and has it's carcass picked up for processing before anyone else beats it*
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Old 13th Jan 2008, 08:41 AM   #27
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*JackN shoots the dead horse and has it's carcass picked up for processing before anyone else beats it*
And you did it in one sentence too...bravo
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Old 13th Jan 2008, 09:07 AM   #28
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Funny part of all of this is that if I changed "Plugins" to "Renderers", This likely wouldn't have been a discussion at all. I think I'll do that in the next round.

JJ you do as you wish. You usually do anyway. And there in is a classic example of why rules exist.
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Old 13th Jan 2008, 09:42 AM   #29
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Funny part of all of this is that if I changed "Plugins" to "Renderers", This likely wouldn't have been a discussion at all. I think I'll do that in the next round.
Could that be because changing "Plugins" to "Renderers" makes sense of what you have been trying to say?

That makes good sense, since it leaves ALL possible texturing options open but keeps the renders native to the apps.

Rescues the horse from Jack and sets it free,

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JJ you do as you wish. You usually do anyway. And there in is a classic example of why rules exist.
Correct. I do as I wish through checking and re-checking that I understand the rules. It comes in handy when other people arn't making sense or appear to have things ass backwards
But Hey.. No worries , Now that you finally figured out what your where trying to get at, we are back on the same song sheet.
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Old 13th Jan 2008, 10:33 AM   #30
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It's being on the same level that gives the contest some edge to it. If we allowed plugins then the more well off amongst us who have every plugin under the sun have a better chance. Being only allowed to use the native app also might push older users to tools that they haven't used in ages.

And besides, this is a texture contest so really all we should be using the 3D app for is lighting and rendering. In fact I'd be tempted to have everyone submit just the model, UV's and maps and render them all in the same scene setup in the same app (doesn't matter which), so no lighting experts can get theirs looking better - IF it's a straight texture contest.
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