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Old 2nd Oct 2015, 07:28 AM   #121
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Do you have a copy of the Starfleet Technical Manual? It has a pretty good section on fonts, IIRC.
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Old 2nd Oct 2015, 01:49 PM   #122
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Yeah all the wrong ones. Microgramma extended was not used in TOS. it was one of the first things I tried to look at as I remember it using all those old typefaces but not many if any at all were related to TOS. The one I ended up using is damn close just a hair heavier than I need but once it is applied cut etc it is very hard to tell. Only issue is kerning and leading? in max do not scale they are absolute so I cannot scale the text and retain the spacing as a ratio. So I am stuck eyeballing it every time as the font settings for those are not correct to what was used.
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Old 2nd Oct 2015, 03:39 PM   #123
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Cut those things on the bottom for now. Still not sure if I will work them as hatches or whatever. instead of hovering decals they are actually cut into the hull itself. This allows me to change my mind. Usually these curved hulls with a consistent curvature with rounded cuts or diag cuts create smoothing errors so I often just extrude them out by the equivalent of 1mm or 1/16" or so from the hull as separate objects. It is how I got the hatches on the backside of the BC decks from making a smoothing mess and not requiring a wastage of polies to avoid it.



Rest of the screen caps are my next nightmare as none of the blues can agree to these grids and the photos. Add in the lines are sub pixel on the blues and often not existent on my templates when applied in max (cant see shite in viewport) so it is more bodgery. (YEAH I am sure everyone is sick of hearing me gripe about this but I still STILL cannot fathom why discreet decided this was a good thing to do) See last image for a good example of this visual vomit.









To add to this, I am not even sure if I want to have them on the model. . . It is one thing I have no pre 74 images of showing it on the ship. The rim and under saucer pencil is visible in pre resto photos but this secondary stuff is just to fine for the res of the photos I have. I am tempted to keep them in just for flow and consistency but I dunno. I am sure all of these grids will show up more as I go about texturing the model. I will be replicating it I think close to what the saucer top is now sans the lacquer yellowing. Those UV photos really show how they used lacquer as a retouch sealer or as a means to tint the base paint. Something the restos missed is they used transparent weathering paints. Something modern paint fails at horribly. You can see this around the BC decks as the paint used is very VERY opaque. vs what was there originally. Anyhow all blather anyhow as most probably only care about the final results!
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Old 2nd Oct 2015, 08:58 PM   #124
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Last of the lame micro updates I hope FFF. I extruded out some grooves on all of those hatches, it is so subtle it is almost worthless. HAH. But I guess it is there for use later on. I did consider splitting one so it could mimic that TOSr scene but decided not to. I am still mulling over the materials on these. Almost considering later on to unify the inner material to the hull material so I can lazy texture them in one go vs separate textures. But we will see as a planar on all those hatches might be much easier than cyl wrapping and flattening out of that crap. But we will see how it behaves when I go to UVW it all later on. I decided for now the panel grids will remain but I can always zap them later on and just leave them on the wireframe for reference markers if I decide to weather the panel shapes into the texture.

Guess next up are eugh windows and decals for the secondary hull. Then struts, registry, oh the shuttle bay doors, then panels and decals to do on the nacelles and I think that is it. Maybe an interior for the shuttle bay. MAYBE.


Oddly by luck the generic pattern on the hull material is breaking near to one of those grids and shows off what I was thinking of doing to make the panels be there but not stand out like a TMP or TNG era ship.













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Old 3rd Oct 2015, 06:52 AM   #125
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This is a beautiful model. It looks great in those renders.
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Old 9th Oct 2015, 06:16 PM   #126
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Fantastic Work!!!!
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Old 17th Oct 2015, 08:43 PM   #127
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panels grills and grates. oh and some holes int he struts. Dunno if you could call them windows to rooms but I guess they could be inspection areas or horrible station posts with a window to help the sitting in a closet issues. Though space might be more livable of gravity was shifted square to the strut to which I would expect it to if there was any sort of room there so the walls would be square. I did though just pull the interiors off the ships level vs the struts level. Not like you will be able to see in there anyhow as these are never lit in canon, just TOSr, and then only on other ships, then again TOSr has those forward portholes as windows.






Might have the grates on the struts wrong, guessing at the hole count as all I have is the grill after being pulled off the model. (yeah 33 vs mine 31) Really they all sorta pixelate off into mush anyhow. ATM it is all texture vs any proper geo as well 100k on grates is a bit meh but for lower rez or smaller overall ship size renders makes for some really bad AA issues. Real GEO tends to fair better than the textures which tend to do strange things like disappear in a odd pattern.


Grate debate is to put crap underneath or not. ugh. . . . but srsly.

Guess next up is pennants on the nacelles and secondary or eyuck windows on the secondary hull. Debate again is if I will do a different pattern on the otherside or just clone it and turn off different windows. I have yet to verify if lit windows vary between the versions of the model. (well on or off as early on it was just paint) mm ok nvm it doesn't appear to change.

quick test of the ship without the AO on the hull and to see if it saves me some rendering time. You can see the grates freaking out as mentioned above. Also thinking I should be putting some matte paint like finish on those strut grills vs the matte chrome/alum.
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Old 18th Oct 2015, 05:23 AM   #128
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PITB,
these windows, are a pain in the butt. lol none of them really are on the same plane. Also there is really mot much to compare with in a relationship position. Sadly Again I need higher rez templates. So loads of eyeballin again so it is slowing things down. Some I have fudged to what I think are camera matching as I have sound some of the offsets are a bit exaggerated. HOWEVER the blues the windows are only 5 or 6 pixels high so that in of itself is fudgy. I do not think i am a fan of accurizing a 3d model to a existing work. So much faster and easier to just make it up or match to plans. HAHAHA.

Large PNG but it is only 202k vs the jpg that is 3 times larger and uglier.


Guess I could have upped the shadow rez some or turned it off. Where the object ends is where it intersects, they are not floating as some of the rubbish rez shadows would lead you to think.

Ok maybe some big wires would be more fun and useful to some extent. And fo course she is no where near 1m polies as that is clones of junk I need to clear out in a crap layer.





Any opinions on the far side of the ship for windows? IE the left side. Clone it but alter lit windows or alter it to create asymmetry? I know there are arguments about it remaining the same as it was intended to be reversed in post but that back then was a cost saving action. Given how all over these are I am tempted to keep the template exact or alter it slightly and alter lit rooms. The neck was easy as I just used a pattern from one of the other variants of the ship.

ALSO if anyone knows about any patterns to these windows other than lit unlit let me know. IE tinted or screened off as some of the ones in the neck ad a mesh inside or on (wasn't too clear other than it was between the light and viewer)


So far I am erring against anything seen in TOSr (the cgi stuff) Things like left side patterns or making those forward portholes windows (placing people or objects inside to show a room there and having 2 pairs on the Lexington etc) I am also taking what is seen on the studio model as it sits in the smith. If a detail or part of the ship prior to 74 exists I defeer to it over what is seen now. post 74 many windows were lost and post 91 some windows were altered and returned, assuming they got masked or accidentally painted over prior to the 90s. Really at some point it seems someone just rattlecaned primer over the whole thing.
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Old 18th Oct 2015, 11:46 AM   #129
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I think if you are remaining true to TOS, they used to flip the film to show the left/port side of the ship. So symmetry would be my suggestion.
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Old 18th Oct 2015, 12:03 PM   #130
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Your best guess might be to find footage/pictures of the pilot version - it did show up in the series and it would be one of the few instances where if you saw the left side of the ship you could be fairly certain it was the left side and not a flipped image. If the windows on that side are symmetrical to the right side, then you are pretty safe assuming that for the series version of the ship.
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Old 18th Oct 2015, 03:47 PM   #131
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There is no "left" side when it comes to any detail. It was a holes and tape during filming for wire access and other things. Even lit saucer details were mostly paint on that side of the model. The ship was retro fitted multiple times before proper filming of the tv series. Most of the lighting was a afterthought as were the bussards motors and lighting so not much of it was internalized.

How it appeared some time after the 70s. Most of that conduit I think is post smith resto/alterations.
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Old 18th Oct 2015, 04:22 PM   #132
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ERRR uh


Note the nacelle detail, or lack of so um maybe lol. Though really this is like probably the only ref I have of this side that isn't a flopped image. (hint the right nacelle's left side was always painted detail never modeled. so argument for the left being detailed prior to the hack and slash to alter the ship to series version.
Either way so far the patterns appear the same on the secondary.
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Old 18th Oct 2015, 09:35 PM   #133
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Yeah, that's the left side of the pilot version all right, and in my mind all the justification one would need to model the windows that way. It's "canon" enough having been seen onscreen, for anybody that might want to argue the point....
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Old 18th Oct 2015, 11:02 PM   #134
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Sadly that photo is a floped one I found more from that set in my refs folder that showed the gear on the floor that proved this. BUT it did bring to my attention that the guts of the nacelle was not present in this version of the ship but where added at some point after. O_o The far nacelle was just hull colour the current dummy paint details were added in 91. -_-.

Plan is to clone the hull and just turn various windows on or off. maybe plug a few up.

I hope ot start cutting those stupid windows tonight. I do though have to source a font as federation classic is far from it. It looks nothing like the ship font spacing is all wrong and things like the C have fail tails. I could swear I had a font called jefferies that was correct but who knows it could take 2 min or 2 days to locate a font again. First step is to find airborne but I know that is not 100% either. Anyhow huge viewport cap and a render.






ohh heh the hull looks weird without the AO shader on. bit funny too as you can see it is still active on a fe places where there are different materials like near the neck. It does not seem to speed up renders to have it off either so meh.

Also found a new toy to aim for or find a contract to afford heh 27" cintiq. DROOOL but when watching vids of it I saw people texture painting DIRECTLY on the model. I gotta find what app that is man. It would kick arse to map this ship by being able to directing paint over details or other forms of the ship without dealing with the ulcer that is 3dsmax texturing tools. Sadly it probably is a maya or LW only pipeline tool IE exporting the mesh would explode everything into uselessness or create a headache worse than dealing with max's crap native tools.
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Old 19th Oct 2015, 05:43 AM   #135
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Well largeish side views. guess it leaves me open for a ripping. Just keep in mind overall shapes were altered between all the blueprints to match what I think I see in photos. So somethings will not line up at all. ATM i am mostly wanting to see if anything detail wise is way off like the windows markings etc. I need to start cutting these tomorrow afternoon or evening. I HOPE to move to texturing before the weekend. Something I need to spend a day is to see if I can find a way to live paint onto the model as this would be the easiest way to do what I want to this thing.






And yes, for now this thing will not have a shuttle bay.

Also for those who might have forgotten I am aiming for final day filming condition. Things that changed after other than unifying the grids over the ship is of no interest TOSr has no place on my model either. I have taken some liberties though and I do plan or am thinking of doing a version where I do take many more liberties such as adding more detail elements. But then again I do have that re-re-connie to finish someday lol. I also have plans for other TOS canon models, maybe not as 100% well 95% recreation as this though as refs are far fewer or non existent.
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Old 19th Oct 2015, 08:53 AM   #136
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It looks accurate to me. As accurate as anything can be given that even the original model has been modified.

More importantly, this thing is beautiful! The screen caps and quickie renders you've posted prove that. It looks like the Enterprise and that's what counts.
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Old 19th Oct 2015, 09:29 AM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigel View Post
It looks accurate to me. As accurate as anything can be given that even the original model has been modified.

More importantly, this thing is beautiful! The screen caps and quickie renders you've posted prove that. It looks like the Enterprise and that's what counts.
I second that. Beautiful work.
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Old 19th Oct 2015, 10:29 AM   #138
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nice attention to detail
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Old 20th Oct 2015, 11:09 AM   #139
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It's so awesome!!!!!
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Old 21st Oct 2015, 03:21 AM   #140
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Forward half of the windows cut in. Lighting needs tuning to adjust brightness etc due to some of the rooms having screwed up layout due to them either being too close or oddly lit so they turn into closets in order to have a lit unlit pattern. I ended up mostly making those L shaped rooms so the window makes some sort of sense. Others overlapped way to closely. So some fudging was needed. Those internal light things in the dark rooms fail some so I might just make a few dummy consoles in super LOW POLY like 10 polies each and just make them glow but without emitting light or much light and let them blur off through the glass vs any sort of lum effects. I think I just have those rear windows the last decal and then it is the shuttlebay doors and markings on the nacelles and I am done modeling. Oh those white lights on the saucer rim. I am also getting a odd exterior light lighting up the rooms, I usually avoid this by tinting off windows, but with this slight blur/frosting it starts showing up as a colour. But I guess it is some sort of realism there. heh.



Ok adding this teaser. I wont be detailing out until I get to that stage and even then it wont be uber levels as I have no plans to render from this location.
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Old 21st Oct 2015, 05:56 AM   #141
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final updates for now.


I think the left to do list is:
  • the side lights or ION pod thing
  • nav lights behind the shuttlebay sensor dome and tailpipe decal
  • Shuttle bay doors
  • Registry markings on saucer
  • nacelle decals and reg
  • swoop thing and red square on nacelle
  • Tuning of room lights and making the left side unique.
  • oh those nav lights on the side of the saucer!
  • and then texture mapping it all and applying proper materials to bits.

If I missed something give a holler.

And that will complete phase 1 of this project.





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Old 21st Oct 2015, 10:25 AM   #142
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Red rectangular marking on the bottom of the nacelle just behind the strut?
I don't remember if the the old show model had a fwd running light....
Apart from those things I think you're spot on
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Old 22nd Oct 2015, 01:49 AM   #143
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The marker light I refer to is a small one on the rim of the saucer between the colored right if way lights and the lower white light markers. It is a small thing I think that blinks. Currently they look to be frosted domes or rounded of cyl. Refs are pretty weak for these if I remember.

Good example of time eater, all I have to show for today is this red knob and these lightbulb things. more 3hrs looking at stuff and 1hr or less of work. lol
Dunno I seemed faster just a few yrs ago. pfft.





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Old 22nd Oct 2015, 11:36 AM   #144
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Added those little side lights and fixed the deflector material. Ignore the texture/surfacing as it is just standin stuff used on the hull etc. It is annoying as just a hair one way or the other as in 3 or 4 numeric digits and it will be way off. In the end I had to use a noise map in reflection to gain the overall finish to the deflector. The side markers are just frosted bulbs cut into the hull typical for everything so far on this ship.

The designer in me really wants to unify all these different metal finishes, ION pod or nav lights have a brassy ring, the markers on the saucer have a nickle finish and the spike is about the same but slightly more matte, add in the grills which are a matte chrome/nickle as well and sheesh. I would prefer to go brass all round except the nacelle grills or that brushed or matte nickle all round. BUT anyway rattling on about pointless things.

I still have not decided (well figured out) what colour those strut grills are suppose to be.







Erm rendering it at another angle it looks a bit flat and still seemingly over saturated. And still feel that the spike is wrong.
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Old 22nd Oct 2015, 03:50 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madkoifish View Post
I still have not decided (well figured out) what colour those strut grills are suppose to be.
When I was younger and actually built and painted resin models I had a photo book from the old series. Most photos were black and white, but the few colored ones showed the grills to be either medium grey or dark grey, depending on the scene. On the old TV's they always looked dark enough to see but not so dark that they didn't blend in with the pylon form a rear or fwd view.
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Old 22nd Oct 2015, 06:29 PM   #146
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Well all I know is it is a mesh and had from the looks of it rusted. They sat in insets so the dark could be just the background of what they were inset into being painted black. I just do not have any photos of resolution to resolve the detail. I have a few in really high rez but film grain is enough to blot it out or the photo is so contrasty or over exposed that all the mid tones shift to white. (this is where a lot of weathering and gray painted parts go the same color as the hull) I think atm I will make it close to hull colour with a backdrop of black and I might be sticking some tubes in there as you can tell it is a empty box behind them.

ATM all i have left is the hull reg and that tailpipe decal and it is off to texturing. I need to find out if there is a paint on tool for max, IE use my tablet to paint right on the 3d mesh. I know lw and maya have these and I have seen someone doing this within what I THINK is a max pipeline so some homework I guess as not many ppl seem to know max on the forums.

Some nacelle teasers.
I am hoping I can do all the decals with transparent textures to make them more painted but retain that polygon decal look without any freaky artifacts inherent to textures. we will see.
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Old 22nd Oct 2015, 06:38 PM   #147
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Ah to heck with it as I dunno if I can get them cut in time. Peaks at the nacelles and registry crap. I have done the shuttle doors but no renders yet The main top reg I still need to fine tune the numbers to not sit RIGHT ontop of that grid. The real model is all wonky here though kerning is WONK everywhere on this ship but that is what happens with decals are just one letter each vs pre registered! lol. I have plans for other registries but I wont take the time with them as I have here. I am just being super anal with this as it is canon and spacing is known. Others tweaks to the Es and such wont happen. HAH.









Anyhow with these done that is it I guess. heh. damn if it wasn't for errands getting in the way all the time this week Id have been done by tues. oh well. Prolly render off a finished modeling post tonight.
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Old 23rd Oct 2015, 02:36 PM   #148
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Well with that, I think the modeling is done.

Time to deal with the texturing. So far paint on object results I have found are all a mess of dead plugins or software for OLD versions of max like v6 lol. So with that and not knowing what phrasing to use for such a thing I figure with time available I should just get to uvw and do it the old way.









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Old 23rd Oct 2015, 02:55 PM   #149
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Oh, hah I forgot that I never did weld the bridge back onto the saucer nor have I collapsed the bat thing from subdiv. Though I do wonder if I really should bother with both of these. The bridge probably I should do as mapping the filth around the seams would be far easier to do with it as a single object then squashed flat in uvw. Though it will prolly barf all over that turbolift area.




Did not think to do the left right patterns for windows BEFORE doing those renders. DERP. Some tuning as well to the right side as brightness was not to my liking.



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Old 23rd Oct 2015, 08:34 PM   #150
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BLOODY early EARLY start on the texturing. For now I will uvw each section of ship. I know I should do it all at once and just attach all the parts at once but already the saucer is 9kX9k. Matching seams is going to be really nasty too as I cannot get max to properly squish things without distortion hell. This rust ring was a ulcer to paint in. heh. ATM it is just diffuse, no proper surfacing maps yet. Not sure where I plan to go with all of that but depending on what gets done over the weekend i will decide if I will pause and push forward and cheat.

base colour oddly is sorta bleh. Thankfully i restarted the psd so the base is a separate layer lol so I can adjust it until it matches what I want.

ok this one has better base color heh
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